tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post5293316728374661455..comments2023-12-31T13:47:05.758+00:00Comments on Fat Man on a Keyboard: Political renewalThe Plumphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09244528534476387323noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-82171574804699794802008-09-02T15:10:00.000+01:002008-09-02T15:10:00.000+01:00They weren't right wing and certainly not follower...They weren't right wing and certainly not followerers of Rand. Lets just say that their view of a certain type of faith school - for want of a better term - and the one I suspect you may favour would be rather different. And I paid for myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-16153488629452360052008-09-02T14:38:00.000+01:002008-09-02T14:38:00.000+01:00PS Mike.If your lunch was with someone that right ...PS Mike.<BR/><BR/>If your lunch was with someone that right wing I hope they paid :-)The Plumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09244528534476387323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-28119693227587919572008-09-02T14:21:00.000+01:002008-09-02T14:21:00.000+01:00Oppositions oppose and use any stick to beat gover...<I>Oppositions oppose and use any stick to beat governments with - especially when there is little substance to their politics.</I><BR/><BR/>This is the view of one person in the group, argued forcibly at our meetings. Perhaps, given our total powerlessness against the government on funding, we are too anxious to see a saviour appear from somewhere. Perhaps too, we don't want to lapse into total political cynicism. After all the effort, we have won every argument in every forum, including the Parliamentary Select Committee and the House of Lords. Even my own meeting with the minister was a score draw (though none of the crumbs thrown my way came to fruition). The result? Complete and total defeat as they have conceded nothing. This is bitter to live with. <BR/><BR/>All I will say is that as an opposition strategy it is a success, compounded by Labour's failure to counter it on its own terms. <BR/><BR/>Rand and Webb - yes, both horrid elitists - makes the rhetorical point quite apt, it is just that the context is wrong. :-)The Plumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09244528534476387323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-55022915663119546622008-09-02T13:57:00.000+01:002008-09-02T13:57:00.000+01:00Just had lunch with someone who is involved in a v...Just had lunch with someone who is involved in a very different educational pressure group than the ELQ one. Their experience in the mid-90s was that when they were providing New Labour with a stick to beat the govt. then New Labour wanted to talk and paid close attention, took notes, raised issues etc. By 2000 or so, for reasons which I think might put you on New Labour's side (its a long story) the pressure group had concluded that New Labour were the spawn of the Devil, and needless to say New Labour weren't returning their calls. Oppositions oppose and use any stick to beat governments with - especially when there is little substance to their politics.<BR/><BR/>My raising of the Beatrice Webb point was actually this; my impression based on my reading of Rand and about her is that in her own way she was as elitist as dear old Bea. And i'm not making this point from a naive Murray Bookchin "abolish all hierarchy" viewpoit. I'll leave you to figure out the rest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-33533402786632495152008-09-01T23:54:00.000+01:002008-09-01T23:54:00.000+01:00You can have Sodomites, and Stakhanovites, but Eto...You can have Sodomites, and Stakhanovites, but Etonites? Think Evertonians. Think Etonians. They have much in common.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-77831202332191577812008-09-01T18:26:00.000+01:002008-09-01T18:26:00.000+01:00Mike1. On Marquand I hope you are right and that i...Mike<BR/><BR/>1. On Marquand I hope you are right and that it is the kiss of death.<BR/><BR/>2. You are dead right on the lack of substance, this is clearly an electoral strategy at the moment, with which much of the grass roots party is distinctly uneasy. There is little policy to hang on to, only tone. <BR/><BR/>However, as part of the national campaigns I was involved with on ELQs, I can assure you that the Tory party were assiduously courting us and that they had long and constructive conversations with many involved in University Adult Education. They asked for help over Parliamentary questions and were genuinely inquisitive. The noises they were making were exactly what we would have liked to have heard from the Government.<BR/><BR/>Campaigners were split on this. I was in the group that was uneasy about it and did not want us to collaborate. I am intrinsically hostile to the Tories, they were ruinously destructive when they were in power. I also did not want it to become a party political issue and thought that all our work should be focused on wining support within the Labour Party. <BR/><BR/>Others were also deeply cynical about the approaches, but I am not so sure. They were inquisitive and were clearly looking for a policy on lifelong learning that was distinct from the current lunacy. The 'trust the professionals' line is one that will win favour and some, who should know better, were impressed.<BR/><BR/>Will it come to anything? Who knows. The tone is different though and a David Davies led party would look and sound different, and would be registering virtually no support in the polls.<BR/><BR/>3. Beatrice Webb - pedant :-) :-)<BR/>It was merely a rhetorical flourish to counterpose against the ridiculous figure of Rand.<BR/><BR/>Overall, I still am with the incomparable Olly on the Tories in his Normblog profile.<BR/><BR/><I>Can you name a major moral, political or intellectual issue on which you've ever changed your mind? > I once loathed the Tories with unchecked enthusiasm; now they have reverted to putting up mediocre, over-privileged Etonites I despise them even more.</I>The Plumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09244528534476387323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-31953394132413557522008-09-01T15:02:00.000+01:002008-09-01T15:02:00.000+01:00Pete. I noticed this article and a few points str...Pete. I noticed this article and a few points struck me.<BR/>The first was that whatever Marquand's qualities as a person/ lecturer, if I was Cameron I'd be rather worried, given his practical track record, when presented with such a fulsome piece.<BR/>The second would be to suggest that your comments about Shires and suburbs and a retreat from Thatcherism are off the mark. Where is your evidence? Do we know yet what policies a Cameron government will follow on the key issues? There's really not much substance there, and when substance appears (moving south anyone? taxes on holiday flights?)it tends to be shuffled under the carpet. My guess - and its a bit more than a guess - is that if you think that a Cameron government will pursue policies wildly different than those of the Major government you'd be wrong. Or do you have any evidence that indicates differently?<BR/>Thirdly; as I have repeatedly pointed out; Beatrice Webb was not a statist in what we could call the high Fabian phase. She was an elitist and the two things are different. She remained an elitist and that is why she could so easily become a Stalinist Statist towards the end of her life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-53284783385101496122008-09-01T01:09:00.000+01:002008-09-01T01:09:00.000+01:00Peter -- see here on samePeter -- <A HREF="http://www.davidosler.com/2008/08/david_marquand_wtf_is_a_whig_i.html" REL="nofollow">see here on same</A>Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08015473239835274353noreply@blogger.com