tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post6304181569600749821..comments2023-12-31T13:47:05.758+00:00Comments on Fat Man on a Keyboard: Other voicesThe Plumphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09244528534476387323noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-13663811757901954432012-10-02T12:32:50.084+01:002012-10-02T12:32:50.084+01:00Just catching up John. This again comes down to w...Just catching up John. This again comes down to whether we hear voices or not. The distinction that I would make is whether they ASK for help and intervention as they quite clearly did in Libya. And if they are operating against determined tyrants with massive firepower, they absolutely do need assistance, because they cannot win against overwhelming force. This isn't orientalism, this is a simple reality. Where the orientalism comes in is in the attitudes embodied in, for example, the mandates system after WWI, which saw the need to tutor people towards independence - a genuine assumption of inherent incapability. <br /><br />Thus there is a distinction to be made between the act of overthrowing a regime and building what will replace it. If there is a revolution and the army stays mainly loyal to the regime, the revolution will be crushed. If part of the army stays loyal and part goes over then there will be civil war. An unarmed or lightly armed people can never win against a loyal army, they cannot liberate themselves. They can only do so without external help if the army changes sides.<br /><br />But, the post was not about intervention, but attitudes. I first saw that something was seriously wrong with parts of the left more than 30 years ago. I had just returned from Palestine and went to a meeting. It was bad enough that the Palestinian man on the platform was totally marginalised by someone ranting on about a Thatcher/Reagan axis, but then he called everyone to support the Khomeni regime. This did not go down well as the audience was full of Iranian Marxists who had escaped the suppression of Tudeh. They complained and were sharply told that the reason was that because the regime was anti-American it was "objectively progressive". The Iranians protested and were then subjected to a tirade of abuse until they stormed out. So the victims of a far-right theocracy were told to support their persecutors because it would be left-wing to do so. Work that one out.The Plumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09244528534476387323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36841665.post-54084322156537461012012-09-29T18:30:11.274+01:002012-09-29T18:30:11.274+01:00I play host to a stream of these Iranian young ath...I play host to a stream of these Iranian young atheists on CouchSurfing as they come to Ankara to get their visas to visit the United States. They may live in a place with many fewer freedoms (and many more hardships) than we do, but that does not mean that they want our help (or particularly American help) to overthrow their government. In fact, many don't even want to overthrow their government, seeing the way out of their theocratic dystopia through gradual change. If one typical oriental conception is to see others as barbarians happy with their lot, another form of orientalism is seeing them as an oppressed mass incapable of liberating themselves without "our" help.John Anoreply@blogger.com